Comments on politicaLDS - Mormons From All Sides: Another political article in the Ensign

I found some of the discussion here enlightening. ...

2009-05-12T21:29:00.000-07:00

I found some of the discussion here enlightening. I particularly found G's comments on communism to give a perspective that US propaganda would never reveal. I had no idea that Marx envisioned a society of local councils without heavy handed interference from a central government. However, I do not see socialism in any of its degrees actually leading towards that goal in actual practice. G's comments on Yugoslavia illustrate this point clearly - as the local order nearly achieved this goal, it was squashed by the central government.

I wanted to point out that the founding fathers of the United States also supported minimal government. They felt that government should act at the lowest level possible. Thus the primary unit of governance should be the family which in turn would be supported by the community, state, and national governments. Of course they differ from Marx in the economic system in which such a governmental system would work. They also felt that their system depended on society consisting primarily of people with Christian values.

As for partisan US politics go, I don't see vast differences in the road Democrats or Republicans political leaders have taken us down in recent decades - I'm pretty sure the federal government has been growing larger and more powerful continually since WWII: Republicans just complain that the Democrats grow it faster.

I agree that what is wrong with the US system is the move from "Capitolist" to "Creditist" economy. I'm glad there are voices out there that give sound economic advise on the issue; unfortunately there are many more that tell people what they want to hear.

Steph, Im workin' on one for you. I'll let you kno...

2009-04-25T21:57:00.000-07:00

Steph,
Im workin' on one for you. I'll let you know when it's done.
Thanks!

Would you like to write a guest post, matt? (or tw...

2009-04-25T12:14:00.000-07:00

Would you like to write a guest post, matt? (or two or three?) I'll post them for you.

IS THIS SITE DEAD? So many great current issues an...

2009-04-24T21:15:00.000-07:00

IS THIS SITE DEAD?
So many great current issues and so little blogging.

Teo, I'd like to respond to some of your comment, ...

2009-04-12T14:46:00.000-07:00

Teo, I'd like to respond to some of your comment, particularly this bit - There are plenty of resources, but resources aren't very resourceful when left unused by those in need. Do some research and you will find that thousands of homeless shelter beds go unused every night.

My parents served a humanitarian mission with the homeless in SLC, so I know something about the particular issue of homelessness in SLC.

The resources available, and the number of resources used, vary greatly according to the season. While it is true that in summer many shelter beds go unused, it is not true in the winter. Many homeless choose to sleep outside when the weather is warm. This is obviously not a very safe option when the weather is cold. In the winter months, the demand for beds far outstrips the number of beds available.

There are some shelters in SLC that operate only during the winter months. Even with these additional beds there are not enough beds for everyone.

There is more I could say on this issue but it does not directly address your comment so I will leave it at that.

No problem, Stephanie.Hope you're all having a Hap...

2009-04-10T16:15:00.000-07:00

No problem, Stephanie.

Hope you're all having a Happy Easter. :)

Just a little up date on our friend Greg from his ...

2009-04-10T15:58:00.000-07:00

Just a little up date on our friend Greg from his blog.

"It took me several months but I managed to get myself excommunicated from the LDS church so that this meddling would stop."

So I guess he is Mormon only in his mind and when convenient to make some point :) Hardly a working class Mormon.

(side note) I would not encourage reading his blog.

And, FD, I apologize for it taking me so long to d...

2009-04-10T08:22:00.000-07:00

And, FD, I apologize for it taking me so long to do that.

I think anyone reading this thread can clearly see...

2009-04-10T08:21:00.000-07:00

I think anyone reading this thread can clearly see exactly what is going on. I have deleted comments that contain clear personal attacks and insults.

Gregoire, I will kindly ask you to leave this discourse that is so "beneath" you.

Gregoire, I went back to find the previous link to...

2009-04-09T23:41:00.000-07:00

Gregoire,

I went back to find the previous link to see what I had missed the first time and I found the link to the Sac Bee story first. I think you misrepresent what that story contains as the church is not even mentioned. the title of the story is "Judge denies request to keep Proposition 8 donors secret. Did you post the wrong story?

Any way I found your previous link and re-read that page and read the rest of the site, could not find any documentation to back you claims of charitable contributions being less than 1% of church wealth. Again wrong link? or did I miss something? Please provide additional direction on how to view materials you are basing your claims on.

Gregoire,You're right there with the rest of us Mo...

2009-04-09T23:10:00.000-07:00

Gregoire,
You're right there with the rest of us Mormons not bestowing "love" on one another. Aren't you just as guilty? Oh, of course not, because you are right and everyone else in wrong.

Really, Mormon wealth is going to build a mall? that is just absurd! Just imagine, creating jobs, and bringing all that tax money to the state, what fools.

Let me apologize for all of us hateful Mormons. See, we didn't realize that we can't have our own opinions and emotions. It's unthinkable that we actually make mistakes and aren't perfect.

You said: "Last year, over two hundred people died from exposure in Salt Lake City, within view of the Bishop's Storehouse and Temple Square." and "yet when it comes to feeding the most vulnerable we are told that these people (who Jesus called *the least of these*) need to "take personal responsibility" and "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".

What should we have done with these people, Forced their mouths open and spoon feed them? There are plenty of resources, but resources aren't very resourceful when left unused by those in need. Do some research and you will find that thousands of homeless shelter beds go unused every night. We can't force people to do anything, that is Satan's plan, right?

Lastly, If you post this thread on your blog that's great. Perhaps people might see that Mormons aren't perfect. Gee, what a surprise!

Feel free to take this as a compliment:)

Gregoire,Dude you totally like need to take a chil...

2009-04-09T22:53:00.000-07:00

Gregoire,

Dude you totally like need to take a chill pill bro and feel the love!!!

Here is one of my favorite scriptures, from Alma 5:26 -
And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

(and to fulfill you wish)

Can anyone believe the way he is intentionally misunderstanding our sincere statements! Perhaps he is not accustomed to having dialog with people who disagree and yet do not become hostile so he is projecting! I have a feeling he is the type to set a spark and then pump the billows :) Of course as a pyromaniac I must admit I like a little fire now and then.

i'm subscribing to comments, as i'm sure there wil...

2009-04-09T18:46:00.000-07:00

i'm subscribing to comments, as i'm sure there will be more "compliments" like "anti-Mormon" (the filthiest insult anyone can give in our tradition - now apparently painted as praise) and various other hateful epithets flung in my direction.

I'm also copying this thread and will be hosting it on my web page, as it's a perfect example of the dysfunctional aspect of Mormonism which we all ought to grow up and out of. I'm sure casual visitors will be amused at the "love" which members of Christ's true church so liberally bestow on one another. LOLOLOL!

Well G, in the future I will try to restrain mysel...

2009-04-09T12:22:00.000-07:00

Well G, in the future I will try to restrain myself from throwing around compliments so indiscriminately.

Sorry for getting the last word in. :D

G, my mention of your family is irrelevant to the ...

2009-04-09T10:39:00.000-07:00

G, my mention of your family is irrelevant to the topic of discussion, whether it be anti-Mormonism or charitable donations. I only brought it up because, as Rap suggested, I wanted you to know that I had spent more time reading through your posts than you accused me of. I enjoy reading about people from all walks of life and your story was interesting. When people write about themselves and their families on blogs, I assume it's because they want people to read it. I read it and I *thought* I was paying you a compliment for your ability to write and express emotion. So I pay you a compliment and then get accused of "getting personal" and "dragging your family into the discussion." I don't get it.

Gregoire,you sir are truly tallented at twisting. ...

2009-04-09T07:58:00.000-07:00

Gregoire,

you sir are truly tallented at twisting. I think Faithful was just showing she had spent more than 10 mintues you suggested she spent. Now if you said that about me it would have been completely true.
So you consider your self a mormon, since you call previous and I assume current church leaders liars would it be safe then to say you are anti-church leaders?
Some of us take personally comments made about mormons, as we identify ourselves with that label. So in a sense you did make personal attacks even if you did not say "RAP08 you are ..."

Now getting back to the church not being charitable I had considered that in other countries the church must open it's books. It makes sense that there would be places that audits would be required. Can you point us to sources that have information about these audits and the small fraction that is reported as charitable?

thanks in advance :)

So, an article is posted about political and econo...

2009-04-09T07:34:00.000-07:00

So, an article is posted about political and economic theory. Eventually I'm libeled with the 'anti-Mormon' canard for disagreeing. When this doesn't shut me up, my wife and family are brought into the discussion.

I wish I could claim to be surprised, but I've seen it so often with friends of mine (many of whom are perfectly observant) that it's not at all unexpected.

Since my "anti-Mormon slur" is obviously so mispla...

2009-04-08T18:43:00.000-07:00

Since my "anti-Mormon slur" is obviously so misplaced, it would be interesting to know what your "correct" definition of anti-Mormon is, since you obviously don't fit the description. :)

My visit to your blog a couple of weeks ago was not my first. In fact, I visited your blog on at least two occasions before that I can remember after discovering The Mormon Worker a few months ago. I was a bit intrigued by what I read at first, but it took a few visits to get a feel for what it was you were trying to say. I rather liked your simple sentiment in regards to being married, which I thought was very beautiful, as well as the story of your growing up and family members which let you down and caused you pain, which I found to be sad and tragic. (You know, all that "controversial" anti-Mormon stuff that I purposely decided to seek out for the sole purpose of attacking people who disagree with me.) And for what it's worth, I agreed with a lot of what you had to say regarding Prop 8 a while back. I found you to be a talented writer, which I suppose doesn't mean much coming from a pathetic phoney. :)

One other note, if you're connecting me to your blog by the fact that it was viewed from Norway, I can tell you that I haven't just been in Norway when I've read other people's blogs. It could have been Canada, it could have been the US. Wherever I go, my laptop follows.

Uh, sure, G. Have a nice day.Right back at ya...

2009-04-08T17:47:00.000-07:00

Uh, sure, G. Have a nice day.

Right back at ya...

Dude, you're not the first anti-Mormon I've encoun...

2009-04-08T09:44:00.000-07:00

Dude, you're not the first anti-Mormon I've encountered, but you are the first one I've come across who seems to like to employ the Mormon handle when it's convenient.

Stephanie was right about your blurring of "wealth" and "tithes." That was a distortion that would have done President Hinckley proud.

"This is the hallmark not of a respectable religion but of a looney, dangerous cult."

But apparently not "looney" or "dangerous" enough to not want to be mistaken for being a part of it.

"I'll ignore FD's attempt to get personal, which is even more obvious than Stephanie's, except to note that it is a standard tactic of true believers to attack the critics..."

It's not often that fellow "Mormons" consider me to be one of the true believing anti-critics. This must be a first! Thanks, G. :)

Uh, sure, G. Have a nice day.

2009-04-08T07:39:00.000-07:00

Uh, sure, G. Have a nice day.

Dear Stephanie:To begin with, you called me a liar...

2009-04-08T03:09:00.000-07:00

Dear Stephanie:

To begin with, you called me a liar, and then quoted a man like "I don't know that we teach that" Gordon B Hinckley, a man who is famous for lying most shamefully on national television.

The LDS Church is right now in trouble for lying to a judge in the American State of California.

http://www.sacbee.com/1095/story/1584048.html

I guess if they lie about how much money they spend on a political campaign, they'll lie about anything.

You'll note that I haven't insulted you, or anyone else here personally. I don't need to rely on such chicanery. The facts speak for themselves.

If you want to claim you misspoke and really just meant "wealth" (which doesn't seem to be the case since you then reaffirmed the use of the word "tithes" by saying you are re-assessing paying them), fine. That is a fair critique - that you don't feel the church should be using its "wealth" from investments to purchase a mega-mall. But, it really is very different to state that the church is using tithing money to do it. That is flatly untrue.

A couple of obvious points, which any discerning reader of this article will have already understood:

The fact that the LDS church absolutely refuses to be audited suggests it cooks its books like Enron. You're claiming that you know where "tithes" begin and "wealth" ends. You don't know any such thing.

Most importantly, the LDS church (Called the Corporation of the First Presidency) claims to be a non-profit and thereby exempts itself from American taxes. Every American is ripped off when one of the 501 corporations uses the tax code self-servingly. The Evangelical Lutherans pay a full 10% of its wealth toward welfare programs. The LDS church claims to pay two tenths of one percent toward charity. This may well be exaggerated.

The article I cited uses the church's own sources which suggest that it is one of the least charitable organizations in modern history. For the LDS church to preach about *charity* suggests a huge amount of hypocrisy. The multi-billion dollar mega mall and upscale condos, which will make huge profits while working-class Mormons and others starve and freeze to death every year in Salt Lake City would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic.

And again, it's amusing to note that Mormons rely on personal attacks rather than debating the real issues. This is the hallmark not of a respectable religion but of a looney, dangerous cult. Rather than simply attacking my character, you and your friends might want to post something substantial or verifiable which tends to refute the facts. Doing otherwise serves no purpose other than damaging your own credibility.

If you want to claim you misspoke and really just ...

2009-04-07T20:48:00.000-07:00

If you want to claim you misspoke and really just meant "wealth" (which doesn't seem to be the case since you then reaffirmed the use of the word "tithes" by saying you are re-assessing paying them), fine. That is a fair critique - that you don't feel the church should be using its "wealth" from investments to purchase a mega-mall. But, it really is very different to state that the church is using tithing money to do it. That is flatly untrue.

G, let's go back and review exactly what you said....

2009-04-07T20:40:00.000-07:00

G, let's go back and review exactly what you said. You said:

Mormon tithes are presently being used to build a multi-billion dollar mega-mall in Salt Lake City

You did not say "wealth", you said tithes. You are incorrect. There is a huge difference between the two. If you are going to attack the church, make it accurate.

Stephanie sez:Whether or not you and Mormons "like...

2009-04-07T13:18:00.000-07:00

Stephanie sez:
Whether or not you and Mormons "like yourself" choose to pay tithing is your business, but don't spread lies.

I said the church was building a multi-billion dollar mega-mall in Salt Lake City with its wealth. You call me a liar, and to support this strange conclusion, you quote President Hinckley admitting that the church is building a multi-billion dollar mega-mall in Salt Lake City.

Nice.

Rap08 sez:

Also I think a lot of the ‘for profit’ businesses which are mentioned in your reference article do get audited. They definitely pay taxes :)

And therein lies the irony.

In countries which require so-called charitable organizations to be audited, the LDS Church is listed as spending about two tenths of one percent of its wealth on charitable work.

Bank of America, which is audited in the U.S. by law, has spent over 2 percent on charitable work. Bank of America gives orders of magnitude more money toward society than the LDS Church does.

If you dispute this, you could present an audit suggesting as much... O, wait, you can't. The LDS Church is unique among U.S. non-profits in their absolute need for secrecy and zero oversight.

I'll ignore FD's attempt to get personal, which is even more obvious than Stephanie's, except to note that it is a standard tactic of true believers to attack the critics, and serves to suggest there are no valid counter-arguments to the topical material I've presented.

Aside from Mormons, Scientologists are also known for this.